11
February 2004 15:35
Georgian president outlines vision of friendly
relations with Russia
Interview
with Saakashvili
Friendly relations with Russia are a priority for the new Georgian government as it embarks on its
programme to rebuild the country, President Mikheil Saakashvili said in a
lengthy commercial radio interview one day before his talks with President Putin in Moscow. On his first visit to Russia as
president of Georgia, Saakashvili told Aleksey Venediktov he came holding out the
hand of friendship because Georgia
is as vulnerable as Russia in the face of regional terrorism. He offered to bolster Russia's
perception of security on its southern border by arranging joint border guard
patrols and said Georgia was prepared to extradite terrorist suspects. Saakashvili
said his new team was getting started on restoring legal, financial and
economic order to the country. He offered Abkhazia "the broadest of
autonomies" within a federal Georgia
and called on Georgians all over the world to return and get the country back
on its feet. Saakashvili said he expected President Putin, with whom he was very impressed, to understand Georgia's
position in their talks. The following is an excerpt from the interview by
Russian Ekho Moskvy radio
on 10 February. Sub-headings have been inserted editorially:
[Presenter] Our studio guest today is
Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili.
Good evening, Mr President.
[Saakashvili]
Good evening.
[Presenter] Mr
President, you said today [9 February] - and also earlier, before leaving Tbilisi - that you
are coming from Georgia holding out your hand. The phrase is obviously ambiguous. It may
mean you intend to shake hands, or to beg. Which sense did you have in mind and
what do you want from Russia? Georgia holding out the hand of friendship
[Saakashvili]
We are holding out the hand of friendship. It happened at the inauguration of
the Georgian president, and it is in fact an unusual gesture for a Georgian
president. You see, throughout recent years, if you asked public opinion in
Georgia who was to blame for our wars and devastation, a lot of people would
quite simply say it was Russia. So at the inauguration - which was attended by about 20 ministers
leading delegations from various countries, including very senior ones, such as
the Russian foreign minister, Colin Powell from the USA and others - I said we
were extending the hand of friendship to Russia. And, to my surprise, tens of
thousands of people who gathered in Rustaveli Avenue [Tbilisi's main street] on that day applauded at this very point in my
address. This was a very important sign for us, because it showed that the
Georgians are willing to overcome the momentum of the past, they are willing to
make friends with Russia. It is interesting, by the way, that
almost none of the Russian TV channels showed that gesture of mine. I watched
it being shown on CNN and the BBC.
[Presenter] Well, you see, we are wary of
you. It is all down to wariness. You see, Mr
President, when preparing for this interview I looked at an opinion poll on
Russian-Georgian relations carried out by the All-Russian Centre for Public
Opinion Studies in January. I have to tell you that the findings make pretty
sorry reading for you, in that 61 per cent of respondents described
Russian-Georgian relations as cool or tense, and only 20 per cent as good-neighbourly.
[Saakashvili]
I'd like to say that these people are right. They were particularly right in
January, and that extends to all the preceding years. Indeed, our relations
cannot be described as normal, not even as normal but cool, let alone warm.
Those relations were simply terrible. So when we say need to establish normal
good relations, what we mean above all is the need to overcome the psychosis
that still exists in our relations at the level of impulses and emotions. Many
Russians have a soft spot for Georgia
in their hearts, and this is very important for us, because it is obvious that
there is a human bond - we have a common culture, a common history, language,
the Orthodox faith. Georgia vulnerable to regional terrorism, too
[Presenter] We'll come to that later, but
when my fellow-Russians - not politicians but ordinary people - were asked
which problem complicated relations between the two countries most, 43 per cent
named the so-called Chechen problem, the presence of Chechen rebel bases on
Georgian territory. That is what Russian citizens believe. What can you tell
these citizens listening to you now?
[Saakashvili]
Russian citizens believe what the Russian mass media believe.
[Presenter] Yes, we're always to blame, Mr President, let us leave this
aside.
[Saakashvili]
No, I'd like to say I am not blaming you. You were right on the whole. These
rebels did indeed move onto Georgian territory, the Shevardnadze government's
attitude to them was indeed very ambiguous, so it was only natural that it did
a lot of damage not only to Russia,
and not even so much to Russia as to our own interests. When there was a terrorist attack in Moscow a few days
ago [6 February], I was shaken to the core, just like lots of other Georgians.
It is not just that we felt a natural sympathy, and were shaken by the tragedy
that occurred here, and such tragedies take place regularly, in connection with
the problem of terrorism, but we also feel how vulnerable we are ourselves. Because we are also a part of this region. So I think that
serious steps have been taken to declare Georgia a
zone that is free of terrorists, free from all suspect characters. And in this
sense, I can say completely clearly that, of course, we feel sympathy for the
women, children and old people who are sick, who are unprotected [presumably
referring to Chechen refugees], but any person with a gun, whatever his
nationality, who intends to kill anyone, is an enemy of order and an enemy of
our state and of any Georgian family, because he is a threat not just to
Russian families but to Georgian families as well. We understand it very well.
Naturally, our relations deteriorated not just because of Chechnya.
Joint border protection to bolster Russian security fears
[Presenter] Let us stick to Chechnya
for now. I have a list of the points I'd like to raise. The bases in Pankisi - how is the new Georgian leadership willing to
cooperate with Russia? Let us start with Pankisi. To any
Russian, the word Pankisi is very familiar, I am
afraid. He knows that there is this gorge, and there are Chechen rebels in it.
[Saakashvili]
You know, a survey was carried out in Russia in
which Russians were asked to say how many Georgians there were in the world,
and most of the answers were between 35m and 40m, whereas there are no more
than 5m of us, whichever way you count. It is the same with Pankisi
- it has assumed very odd proportions. In fact, it is a very small and narrow gorge, it takes just five minutes to fly over. In effect,
nothing is going on there at the moment. If anything does happen, we will be
the first to want to clamp down on it. Here is what we propose - I am meeting Putin tomorrow, and I have met his aides today, as well as
[Trade and Industry Chamber president, former prime minister and foreign
minister] Yevgeniy Maksimovich
Primakov and Russian businessmen, and I have always
said this, to make sure no questions are left dangling. There is the issue of
the border, because this area is near the Russian border. We are willing to
introduce joint patrolling of the border - joint patrols by our border troops,
and even setting up joint outposts. I an a former
border guard myself, so I know what I am talking about. We are willing not only
to sign straight away an agreement to exchange information and exchange border
troops officers, we are also willing to have many more of these officers to
deal with it on the spot, so that Russia can feel really protected. There is
one thing to bear in mind though. On the one hand, there is a real threat both to
Georgia and to Russia, and we should defend ourselves together because it is quite
obvious that we have a common threat and a common enemy - terrorism is a common
threat. On the other hand, there is a desire among some Russian military
establishments to blame everything on a threat from Georgia.
In order to make sure that they have no basis for this, we are willing to give
them full information, full access, so that they don't think that we are
restricting them in some way. And of course we'll be very pleased if Russia
feels happy, because we'll feel better too. Georgia
ready to extradite terrorist suspects
[Presenter] There is another sensitive
issue, Mr President, to do with the Georgian
authorities' refusal to hand over some people on the wanted list on suspicion
of committing terrorist acts - you know what I am talking about. At the same
time, as far as I know, your country's prosecutor-general has arrived with you
today, pressing for the extradition of some people too. But we are asking you
to extradite people suspected of terrorist offences!
[Saakashvili]
The main reason why our prosecutor-general has come here is to make sure that
no questions are left unanswered. We need to cross all t's
with regard to the extradition of any citizen or resident of Russia,
or resident of any country, suspected of carrying out terrorist acts on Russian
territory. There have been accusations in the past, and with good reason, but
people suspected of carrying out a terrorist act in Moscow have been
extradited, including some very well-known figures. We are saying now that if
there is anyone left, give us a list and we'll find them, or if we can't, you
can help us find them - come [to Georgia] and let us find them together. If
they are still in Georgia, let us deport them together. We'll be happy if you take them away.
The sooner we get rid of them, the more protected every one of our citizens
will feel. Even if Russia does not take them, if we have information to the effect that
someone is accused of terrorist offences, we'll put him in prison, we'll put
him on trial. Moscow, after all, is much farther from the Chechen sector of the
Russian-Georgian border than Tbilisi, which is just two-and-a-half hours' drive away, so any one of our
people is much more vulnerable and much closer to all these events. I obviously
proceed above all from their interests. We would indeed like to get rid of all
suspicious characters.
[Presenter] [Passage omitted] We have
received an e-mail saying "Love and hate. Igor Giorgadze."
I do not know if [Georgian state security minister in 1993-5] Igor Giorgadze himself sent it, or someone else did in his name.
Is Georgia still seeking Igor Giorgadze's
extradition?
[Saakashvili]
You know, this man has really been made by Russian propaganda over all these
years. He was indeed head of Georgian security and was suspected of
[involvement in] a terrorist act. He should face a normal court. And yet for
many years - though probably not any more - he was an officer with the Russian
security services. Even if we want to be friends with Russia,
it is quite obvious that an agent of the Russian special services cannot be a
political player in Georgia. On the other hand, any man under suspicion should not be shielded
and should face trial. But for some reason before every election this figure is
brought to the forefront as some sort of banner. He has been made into
something like a Loch Ness monster: everyone is talking about it, yet no-one
has actually seen it or knows what it is. New government restoring legal and financial
order in Georgia
[Presenter] Talking about elections, here
is a question from a listener: Do you believe you have been elected
democratically? After all, 96 per cent is a bit too much.
[Saakashvili] I
believe it is an indecently high percentage, so I agree. Yet it reflects the
real state of affairs. Thank God, there were thousands of observers and they
have all confirmed that. Whichever way you look at it, the majority of the
population did vote - there was great enthusiasm. Am I pleased with 96 per cent?
Of course not! I am 36, and I won 96 per cent of votes in my country. This
means I can only go down, there is no way up, so I have already reached the
summit, and it can only be downhill from now on in terms of my political
career. But of course I have much wider aims than just a high rating and
election results.
[Presenter] But this is also a high
degree of trust, so there will be a lot to answer for.
[Saakashvili]
Of course, and it is already happening. But we have really taken very serious
steps. Above all, people demanded that we should restore order in the country.
We have brought in a new team. Many former ministers have been arrested - the
transport minister, the energy minister, the railway chief, who was in effect a
minister. Some of those arrests required a special operation with helicopters
and special units. Several major godfathers who in effect headed criminal mafia
groups have been arrested too. We carried out an operation in Western Georgia and arrested
local armed gangs operating there. We shall do the same in other regions. Why
am I saying this? First of all, we took measures to restore order. Secondly, of
course, there's the question of financial discipline.
[Presenter] Wages and
pensions.
[Saakashvili]
Yes, what we have done is what [former president Eduard]
Shevardnadze was not doing in the last four or five years - we have started
paying wages and pensions on time. Before, people used to ask why they were not
being paid their pensions and they asked to be paid on time. Now they have already
started asking why their pensions are so low. This is quite natural. In order
to raise pensions, however, we need to extend our tax base. Today, for example,
I had meetings with 10 or 12 major Russian businessmen or oligarchs - the word
is unpopular in Russia right now, so they do not call themselves oligarchs any more. They
are really talented people. We have invited them to invest. So the second
aspect is the economic one. The third is establishing normal relations with our
neighbours, with Russia
above all.
[Presenter] Why Russia
above all?
[Saakashvili]
Because we have suffered enough from poor relations with Russia, because many
troubles have befallen Georgia on account of these poor relations, and also
because if there is a country we have a lot in common with, it is above all
Russia. There are human bonds - you know, just
individual people. [Passage omitted: mentions a woman next door who has
relatives in Russia; presenter announces a phone-in poll]. Abkhazia offered
"broadest of autonomies" in federal Georgia
[Presenter] Let us now turn to Abkhazia.
Some 32 per cent of respondents in Russia
believe that what accounts for cool relations between Georgia
and Russia is Abkhazia. [Passage omitted: quotes some comments sent by
listeners.] How are you going to tackle problems in Abkhazia? Are you going to
tackle them together with Russia?
What will you tell Putin about Abkhazia tomorrow, how
to you intend to reach agreement?
[Saakashvili]
We shall certainly tackle the issue of Abkhazia together with Russia. I
don't think anyone will dare even think that it can be tackled without Russian
participation - active and well-intentioned Russian participation - not just
for the benefit, say, of ethnic Georgians, but for the benefit of both the
Georgians and the Abkhaz. For me, this is fundamentally important. This stance
proceeds from the fact that Abkhazia is, quite naturally, a very important part
of Georgia. We obviously realize that the Abkhaz are our citizens, and they
should be treated with respect. You will hardly find any hatred or ill-feeling
towards the Abkhaz in any section of the Georgian population. Speaking for
myself, I personally have very warm and respectful feelings - not just for the
Abkhaz but for the South Ossetians and all other inhabitants of Georgia.
We believe it is our common treasure.
[Presenter] How can the problem be
solved? It does exist, after all.
[Saakashvili]
As regards the problem - unfortunately, in the early 1990s the conflict in
Abkhazia was not an internal Georgian conflict. It was, to everyone's shame, a
joint Georgian-Russian war. Russian armed forces were operating there, and an
ethnic conflict was created. Russia
was very weak at the time because it had been hit by reforms, people were
destitute and there was a need to show them something [positive], they were
feeling humiliated. So Russian generals in the provinces
started restoring some bits of the empire, rehashing, restitution and so on.
So when talking about this subject, we should not forget that part. As a
result, our territory where nearly 700,000 people used to live, the Soviet
Riviera, where the richest, the most prosperous and successful used to live, is
now left with a population of no more than 60,000-70,000, at most 15 per cent.
[Presenter] Do you mean ethnic Georgians
or the population as a whole?
[Saakashvili]
No, I mean the population as a whole - at most 15 per cent of the pre-war
population. Not only have virtually all Georgians left Abkhazia, but most of
the ethnic Abkhaz. There used to be Greeks, Estonians, Russians
there - most of them have left because it became a war zone, where beaches are
mined, where the situation is desperate. One cannot tolerate a situation in
which a person will surely be killed because of his ethnicity if he ventures
into this territory. And yet any Georgian person will be killed if he ventures
into Abkhazia. That is the problem. So the first thing to do is obviously to
establish ties between the Georgians and the Abkhaz. Secondly, we need to talk
about a federal structure of relations. We are naturally willing to grant
Abkhazia the broadest of autonomies - broader than that enjoyed by any of Russia's
autonomous territories today. There was a campaign to grant [Russian]
citizenship to the Abkhaz. I'd like to say that it was not a very healthy
campaign. It is the same as if Georgia
suddenly granted citizenship to people in the North Caucasus, some of whom
are not very well disposed towards the Russian state, and some downright
hostile. Would Russia have been pleased? It would have been stupid of Georgia
to do so, and I believe Russia, too, will not act in this way. By the same token, the visa issue
cannot be dealt with unilaterally. We are in favour
of all people being protected.
[Presenter] But how can that be achieved,
Mr President? Suppose there is a war.
[Saakashvili]
No. We are going to discuss it with Putin tomorrow -
that is the worst possible scenario, the very worst. Even in the ideal world,
even if we had a 100,000-strong army, the best-equipped army, even in those
circumstances I cannot see a purely military solution, because there can be no
solution without the human factor. Everyone should realize, however, that under
no circumstances will the Georgian state put up with the idea that Abkhazia
should no longer be part of Georgia. We cannot put up with a situation in which
we have a territory where any person - a Greek, an Azeri, a Georgian or an
Abkhaz for that matter - can be killed or expelled because of his ethnicity. We
will not put up with this. So we must [signs deeply] we have to come to an
agreement. We have to agree on the return of all refugees - Georgian, Abkhaz,
Russian or Greek.
[Presenter] So the first thing is the
return of refugees.
[Saakashvili]
Secondly, we have to agree on federal relations with broadest autonomy. We have
to agree on a peaceful settlement, on international guarantees, and above all
from Russia. I am going to discuss it with Putin. I
pin high hopes on him because he has made a great many sound and proper
statements concerning conflicts in the neighbouring
states. I believe Russia has a very pragmatic and sound politician [in Putin],
who understands these conflicts better than anyone. He was not part of all
those past events when so much damage was done.
[Presenter] So he bears no responsibility
for that war.
[Saakashvili]
No, he bears none, and neither do I. So we can now turn over a new leaf. We now
enjoy the support of the people, and we are willing to make brave decisions. I
am sure that after the Russian presidential election, President Putin can find the right way to settle this conflict. I am
also confident that in Abkhazia, where there will also be a presidential
election this year, people will also emerge who will realize that while they
have to remain very close friends with Russia, they also have to find common
ground with Georgia and look into the future - one cannot perpetuate this
situation.
[Presenter] I have received a very
interesting question from (?Kartlas
Adaishvili) from New York. He said
he is an ethnic Georgian. He left his house in Sukhumi in 1993. He is asking you, would you agree that Russia's
mediation alone is not enough? He says the European Union and the USA
should be drawn in, to ensure progress.
[Saakashvili]
In fact, we are drawing them in. But I am under no particular illusion. There
is the Geneva process. There is the UN. There is the European Union, which can
provide funds. However, the essential factors for progress are the active
involvement of the Abkhaz and Georgians themselves, the correct policy of the
Georgian authorities and a favourable or at least a
neutral attitude from the Russian leadership towards the conflict situation, in
fact a good attitude is required. But we are assessing Russia's
involvement within a multilateral context. We are not assessing it within a
bilateral Georgian-Russian context or a trilateral context including the
Abkhaz. There are the frameworks of the UN and the Geneva agreements.
Some people can give money for rebuilding houses. Others can provide some
guarantees. But Russia's goodwill makes things easier for both Georgia
and Russia, across the entire North
Caucasus. This is essential. It is linked
with Kabarda-Balkaria, [Karachay-]Cherkessia, Chechnya, Ingushetia, North Ossetia. The whole
region is inter-connected. Everyone is interested in stability there. We will
find common ground. I am sure we will find a way out of the situation. Georgia
to gain from friendship with strong Russian president
[Presenter] Do you think the role of the
peacekeepers in the area is the best it can be?
[Saakashivili]
I think this role is not the best it can be. I believe that the peacekeepers
could have been far more active, could have provided far more guarantees for
all ethnic groups in the population. But you know, the time is right - Putin is consolidating authority, so that we do not have to
deal with locally-based Russian generals who get actively involved in
smuggling, trafficking in drugs and arms. Let's be honest. There are so-called
guerrilla units, separatist units and Russian generals who have been getting
along with each other quite well. Many of them are involved in illegal
operations. But on top of that, we have got tired of having to deal with
Russian generals, colonels and majors. This is not Russia's
policy. Russia's policy should come from the Kremlin. That is why I am visiting
the Kremlin. I think that, given the emerging powerful president, given his
strong will, given the consolidated authority, there is hope that such issues
will be resolved. Previously, what was decided here was filtered and the end
result for us was almost nil. I think there is a way
out of the situation. Everyone should understand this. We understand that we do
not want Russia to be our adversary. We need Russia to
be our friend. Opinions are often given that Russia is
going to be driven out of the region, that the USA is
going to take over from it. I am directly saying that - I have always said this
- I am not a pro-Russian president. This is true for whoever is the president,
even the Giorgadze whom you mentioned - even should a
miracle happen, Martians land on Earth and elect him
president. He would not be pro-Russian. Georgia
cannot have a pro-Russian or a pro-American president. This could never be the
case. Georgia can only have a Georgian president who will defend the interests of
Georgia, which wants to be friends with Russia
and wants to settle all these issues. This is the idea behind our policy.
[Presenter] Just to remind you, we have Mikheil Saakashvili here with us.
In three minutes we have received more than 4,000 phone calls here, Mr President. You didn't get 96 per cent here, but your
stock is fairly high. Seventy per cent of people believe you are a friend of Russia,
30 per cent think you are not friendly.
[Saakashvili]
You see, I have my successes in Moscow, too.
[Presenter] A question from our
listeners: What will become of Shevardnadze and his family? What's your
personal view? Former president should not face jail
[Saakashvili]
Firstly, what they stole they should return. They stole a great deal, and more
news is emerging on that front. I don't think he should be imprisoned, although
it is a moral question. We are putting a minister of his away,
and rightly so. Then people point the finger, saying he gave us authorisation and he gave a direct order. What should one
do in this kind of situation? It is a difficult one. However, on the other hand
you have to understand that, first, we don't have to be like savages and go on
seeking vengeance. Secondly, this is a situation that applies to other countries,
too. The biggest problem in the post-Soviet world has been the transfer of
power. And a lot of democratic opposition leaders have come to us with their
concerns - and, by the way, I have good relations with all the presidents -
saying for God's sake don't touch Shevardnadze, because we'll never persuade
our presidents to step down peacefully following elections if anything happens
to Shevardnadze. There's a logic in that, too. So we
have a responsibility locally, but also internationally. I found to my horror
that not only are we being watched in Central
Asia, Russia, Ukraine, Moldova
and so on, but Fidel Castro recently said look, the people of Georgia
have overthrown a tyrant and robber and a person like me has come in.
[Presenter] Well, that's not exactly high
praise! Even if he only meant you'll stay in power for as many years as he has.
Forty!
[Saakashvili]
No, God preserve me. He may be sympathetic, but I can't grow the beard. Sooner
the better for Russian base withdrawal
[Presenter] Literally
the last couple of questions, now. Twice you avoided giving an answer
when you were asked at news conferences in Strasbourg about
the timetable for the [withdrawal of Russian] military bases. We are hearing
various dates. Initially the Russians were talking about needing 11 years to
prepare, that's down to seven now. Your side was talking about three years.
You're likely to be talking about this with Putin.
You have already said today there will be no foreign bases, neither American
nor Russian, on Georgian territory. Have I understood you correctly? What is
the timetable you'll be taking to Putin, can you let
us know, his generals are saying seven years, our generals are saying seven,
and you'll go in there and say, what?
[Saakashvili]
Well, you know, at first the generals were saying 11-15 years, then 7-9 years,
then the day before yesterday I heard 5-7 years. As a famous literary hero
said, it would be quite wrong to haggle here. These bases have to go. In
reality, though, people don't know what these bases are like. These are a bit
[interrupted]
[Presenter] I asked about the timetable, Mr President.
[Saakashvili]
These have 3,000 people, of whom the majority - 2,000 out of
3,000 - are local Georgians, contract servicemen with Russian passports.
So there are something like 500 to 600 real Russian
officers there, and they are saying give us 500m dollars to pull them out,
that's a million per head. We are saying to them that for Russia -
and the Ministry of Defence admits this - these bases
are of no military significance at all, they have no strategic long-term
significance. So we are talking about emotions here and about Russian security
guarantees. We are saying, let's set up other security guarantees for Russia.
Let's decide, point by point, what Russia's
interests are: that third parties don't come in -
we'll say straight off that no third party will come in and fill the void.
Their second interest is that Russia's
borders be safeguarded. Let's defend them jointly. If our border guards don't
suit, let's have joint patrols, let's have joint details, let's even arrange
shared border-posts and joint overflying of the
territory, so that Russia does not feel unprotected. If there's a shortage of information,
let the special services officially, through official channels, exchange
information. Of course, we are an independent country and everyone must respect
the independence of their neighbour. But it is
possible to communicate with independent countries and have great influence
there.
[Presenter] That's the third time you
have avoided my question.
[Saakashvili]
No, I said the sooner the better.
[Presenter] But yesterday would have been
even better.
[Saakashvili] I
know. But I would be very pleased were they withdrawn tomorrow.
[Presenter] Final question, I promise,
and it's an interesting one. I undertook to put it to you on behalf of Teymuraz Chelidze in Sendai, Japan.
Call for Georgians worldwide to return and rebuild
[Saakashvili] I
don't understand, am I in Moscow or among [interrupted]
[Presenter] The Internet covers the whole
world. What can fellow countrymen abroad do to help Georgia?
Questions like this have been coming in from New York, Ottawa, Munich and even Sendai in Japan.
[Saakashvili] I
have put out a call, and this is not only to our friends in Japan,
but to Georgians all over the world. Over the past few years one Georgian in
five has left the country.
[Presenter] There are Georgians in Russia,
too.
[Saakashvili]
Yes, the majority are in Russia. I
have called upon them, and these are not just fine words, to return to Georgia.
Now is the time to sort things out and rebuild our country anew, to build the
future anew for our children. We are very grateful to all the countries which
took in our citizens, first and foremost, Russia.
We are grateful that they were treated properly. Georgians are very fond of Russia.
Of course many of those who are here may have problems, but people here give
them a warm reception. But now is the time to put Georgia
right, it is a tradition that Georgians never say goodbye to Georgia.
There has been nothing like what happened over the past few years for
centuries, and now we have an entirely new situation. Now we need not just
well-qualified engineers, lawyers and economists, but first and foremost
ordinary people with experience of working abroad to whom we can offer safe
conditions. This is vital: safety, stability, a state system that is not
corrupt. That is the most fundamental thing I wish to achieve. And there are
good prospects for them and for their children. Everyone has to live, and that
does not apply just to ethnic Georgians. There were
Armenians, Azerbaijanis, Abkhazians and Ossetians who
left Georgia. I want them all to return to Georgia. Georgia
is a state of many ethnic groups, we are very proud of our diversity, we are proud
of our traditions of relations among nationalities. Let them return and rebuild
the country.
[Presenter] I should be letting you go,
but I won't be forgiven it I fail to raise the visa question. Will you be
talking to Vladimir Putin about this? We know that Russia,
defending itself against Chechen rebels, unilaterally brought in visas. Then
the visa regime was simplified for Abkhazia, most precisely for Batumi, and so on. Will you be talking to Putin
about this? What do you want? Simpler Russian-Georgian visa system needed
[Saakashvili]
Do you really believe that was to gain protection against Chechen terrorists?
[Presenter] I am presenting you with the
Russian argument.
[Saakashvili]
Do you think that as soon as they brought in the visa requirement [Chechen
separatist warlords] [Shamil] Basayev,
[Ruslan] Gelayev and [Amir] Khattab joined the long
queue at the Russian consulate for visas? Of course that did not happen, it was ordinary citizens standing there. When these
terrorists cross over, it is generally on mountain trails. My auntie Keto spent two weeks in the queue and went away
disappointed. These are the people cursing the officials who gave the Russian
leadership the idea of bringing in visas. It has to be simplified.
Incidentally, the visa system is not beneficial to Russia, either, it creates big problems for the movement of those
same military personnel for Russia. I
am not advocating abolishing it completely, let's simplify it. We have a
simplified regime with Turkey, Turkey is well aware of who is entering the
country, it has not fallen apart because of it and no threat has emerged. If we
can establish this kind of relationship with Turkey,
we can with Russia, which is a perfectly natural friend and ally to us.
[Presenter] Mr
President, there were 30 per cent who didn't believe you. I'd like the 70 per
cent who did to switch off now, leaving only those who consider you hostile to Russia.
I'd like you to speak to that 30 per cent who don't believe you or trust you
now, without me asking any question, and that will be the end of the programme. Russia
and Georgia should be friends
[Saakashvili]
No, I think all the misunderstandings should be left behind, I am totally
convinced of that. This is not going to happen overnight, such a lot of things has built up, there are so many issues. This relates to the
restoration of Georgian territorial integrity and to the way we dealt with many
mutual problems. Georgia was a youthful dream for very many Russians of a
certain generation, the majority of whom have either visited Georgia or heard
about Georgia, and somehow connected with Georgians and I believe that these
people have only positive impressions of that Georgia. No more should
politicians soil this most sentimental part of people. I think both Georgians
and Russians should have this in their hearts. We are not going to have a
single state in common any more, that much is clear,
but we will create a normal human experience in common. This is one of my aims,
naturally it is part of my plans to get my country back on its feet and make it
strong. We are a small country, naturally we have fewer and smaller interests
than Russia, but they are our interests and we are prepared to fight to the end
for them. I want to get my country back on its feet, I love Georgia more than
anything, but while I love Georgia I also am only too well aware that it is
precisely because of this love for Georgia and because of my own personal
feelings that we must first and foremost make friends with Russia and, of
course, with all other countries alongside Russia, too.
[Presenter] Do you expect President Putin to understand and that you will leave Moscow with a
lighter heart?
[Saakashvili] I
don't know him personally, but he has impressed me greatly a number of times. I
have said that there are some things one might learn from him, where one might
take a leaf out of his book. I think the most important thing is that he is a
very sincere and frank person. And I have more than enough sincerity, as I know
to my sorrow at times. I am trying to be extremely sincere and I believe we
will understand each other.
[Presenter] Thank you very much. Live on Ekho Moskvy radio we had Mikheil Saakashvili, the
president of Georgia. After the talks tomorrow Mr Saakashvili will be giving a news conference and, of
course, we will be hearing about the outcome of the talks from the Georgian
president. Thank you.
[Ekho Moskvy
radio]