3.03.2004

There are no terrorist nations in the world

An exclusive interview with MEP Bernd Posselt.

Mr. Posselt is a deputy of the European Parliament, politician, public figure. He takes a principle stance on the Chechen issue. He is one of the initiators of the appeal “Chechnya: Enough!”, the European Parliament’s resolution on “war crimes in Chechnya,” handing “Passport of Freedom” over to Chechen Foreign Minister Ilyas Akhmadov.

Question: Mr. Posselt, to begin with I want to thank you that you kindly agreed to give an interview for our newspaper.

Our newspaper aspires to inform our readers how western politicians react to the war in Chechnya. Quite often we publish questions and statements by Member of European Parliament Olivier Dupuis. Also we know that your position on the Chechen issue is close to the position of Dupuis. And in this respect I want to ask you:

How actively is the Chechen question raised in the European Parliament now and what possibilities does the European Parliament have to influence the situation?

Answer: I think the question has always been very present. We started with this discussion before the first war in Chechnya, and then followed up after the First War and now, during the Second War, e have always tried to debate the Chechen question. I started this work together with the former MEP Otto von Hapsburg who was always in favor of Chechnya and now I work very close together with two very good friends of mine — one is Olivier Dupuis, and the other one — is the president of European People’s Party Peter Poettering who is also a great supporter of Chechnya and this is very important, I think, because he is our group leader — European People’s Party, and this is the biggest group in the European Parliament. So, I think we have some very good friends, not many, but some very good friends, we know that we have no real power at the moment to change the situation in Chechnya, but we can do a lot so that this war in Chechnya will not become a forgotten war. You know, I was one of those who worked before 1989 for the freedom of people from Central and Eastern Europe, for example, for the Baltic States.

And at that time, we always brought up the question of the Baltic States, human rights and so on. And a lot of people said — your work isn’t realistic, why do you do this, the situation will never change. Now, it has changed, and in May we will have all these countries as member states of the European Union!

I think the situation is very-very difficult in Chechnya and one could be pessimistic because it is really very difficult to change the situation… But the most important thing is not to forget the Chechen people, to speak about this brutal war, to accuse the Russian Army and the Russian authorities of what they are doing. And sometimes, I think, things will change.

Question: 145 deputies of the European Parliament express their support for Maskhadov’s Peace Plan. But several times later — an explosion on Moscow metro took place. The government of Maskhadov denies its involvement. However, Putin accuses Maskhadov (even before an investigation begins). And in his statement he says that terrorist actions and appeals from abroad to conduct talks with Maskhadov is an attempt to exert influence upon today’s authorities. In fact, he put the events into one chain.

How can you comment on this statement and can it change the position of the European Parliament?

Answer: I don’t think so, but first of all I must say that always, when Mr. Putin starts an election campaign, something happens, which can be used against the Chechen people. I don’t know if this is the reason for these things, but it’s very interesting that the fact is that always when Mr. Putin starts an election campaign he accuses Chechens of being terrorists when something terrorist happens. I don’t know the real background, but this is the very-very strange to see this. The second point is — I think there are some problems with some small groups among the Chechen fighters, but it would be interesting to knowing the real background of these groups. But I think that the Maskhadov government has always been a very serious government, and President Maskhadov has always tried to find a negotiated solution. And I think it isn’t possible to find a real peace excluding President Maskhadov. And I support his position and his Peace Plan because I think — he is the legitimate president of Chechnya, he was elected under OSCE control and I think every solution has to respect his legitimate position and has to include him into negotiations. And if Mr. Putin excludes him, he makes clear that he doesn’t want a real peace process. Because, If he wants to negotiate only with his own marionettes, with his own creatures, then he is not interested in real peace.

Question: You are one of the deputies who contributed to the process of issuing Passport of Freedom for Ilyas Akhmadov. Can you tell us a little more what this passport is and how it can protect its holder, because, as you possibly know, Russia has preferred absolutely absurd charges of extremism, etc. against Akhmadov?

Answer: I remember well the times when, for example, every Croat in Germany, who was against the Yugoslav communists, was accused of being a terrorist. I remember well these times in 70’s. Now Croatia — is a democratic state and it starts negotiations with the European Union for membership. And we know that many of these materials against Croats were fabricated by the-then Yugoslav Secret Services. And I think now, in our time, there is a killer argument against everybody, if you accuse somebody of being a part of international terrorism — he is in a very difficult situation, because it’s very difficult to make clear that you are not a terrorist. But I think in a normal state with rule of law, in the international community with rule of law — you have to find facts that you can accuse somebody of being a terrorist. There are Chechen terrorists and there are terrorists in all peoples and we have to fight against terrorists. It’s very clear — I have no sympathy for Chechen terrorists, but I think that Chechens are in a difficult situation — they are a small people fighting against the colonial oppression in the colonial war, and they are accused of being terrorists because this is a modern argument to stigmatize somebody. And this is what we can not accept. There are no terrorist people in the world. And no people of first class and second class, and there is no people with rights to self-determination, and people without rights to self-determination, so we should be very sensitive if somebody uses this argument. And our passport no more than a symbol that we trust this person to be a real representative of his people, that he is fighting for freedom, for peace, for negotiations, and we want to give him a kind of moral support.

Question: In 1970’s the West had more confidence in Soviet human rights activists. Under Gorbachev the situation changed — the USSR was not longer the empire of evil. Today Russia is turning into a monster of Stalin’s epoch. Professor Avtorkhanov, a political immigrant from the USSR, said in 1950’s: there is no authority of communists in the USSR — only the authority of KGB. Today the situation repeats, but western leaders do not want to notice it. What is that? An attempt to support almost disappeared democracy in Russia?

Answer: In 1989 I was present at all the democratic changes of the so-called revolutions — but that wasn’t revolution — it was a peaceful change in Central and Eastern Europe. And I remember very well that at that time a lot of western leaders said: yes, we accept these revolutions, I happy about this revolution, or changes, but the Baltic States must stay within the Soviet Union, Ukraine must stay within the Soviet Union… We can not change the borders… Yugoslavia has to stay… And so on and so on.. And I criticized it and I said: it is not realistic. These people have the rights to self-determination and human rights like all other peoples and we help them to find a peaceful way, this is important, to find a peaceful way. And it is true that Mr. Gorbachev chose the peaceful way, but it was not always his way. For example, I was in the Baltic States, when the OMON killed a lot of people, for example in Riga, in the center. And that was also under the leadership of Gorbachev. He had also plans of violent oppression of the Baltic States at first. And this is very important for Europe — one of those who blocked such plans at that time was Soviet general Dudayev, who said «no» to these plans. This should not be forgotten. The Baltic States now become EU members in May 1. We should remember, that the Chechen leader, President Dudayev as a Soviet general, did a lot for freedom, for peace in these new member states of EU. And this is very important, I think. So, I think Gorbachev abused it this time, also first, when he changed his mind, thanks God, but if we see the policy of Mr. Putin — he is on the old way. Also some of the western leaders are on the old way. At that time they said: we have to accept the Soviet Union, now they say: we have to accept the reality of Mr. Putin. I clearly attacked Mr. Berlusconi in the European Parliament because of this, because I think his policy in the name of the European Union was wrong from the beginning to the end. I do not criticize everything what his is doing — I have some good relations with some ministers in his government, but his policy concerning Russia was wrong. And I hope that we will see some changes under the new EU presidency.

Question: Analysts say that as a result of actions of Russian military over the recent decade about 200,000 civilians died in Chechnya — 20% of the whole people. Nonetheless, the West has never pronounced the word «genocide." They speak about genocide in Bosnia, Kosovo — but as for the genocide in Chechnya — it does not exist. What is the reason for different approached to similar events?

Answer: It is a genocide, to make it clear. Because, genocide means that a government plans to bring a people out of existence. Genocide must not mean that the whole people is killed, but the existence of people is destroyed, as people… So, I think this is a war which includes a planed genocide. But the governments do not speak about it, because then they wouldn’t be able to be so passive at the moment. Their official wordings are be friends, they are saying this is the war against terrorism and some methods in this war are too brutal. And they criticize these brutalities. But if they accept: it is a genocide, then they would have to do more. And they are afraid to do more, because Russia is a big state. This is the difference. In the former Yugoslavia you had to do with Serbian general, or something like this, — that was not a big power, but Russia — is a big power, and this is the reason why they are so careful. But I think — it is a genocide. This is the difference between government and a free parliamentarian, I can say the truth, whether it is diplomatic or not, and for me — it’s a genocide.

Question: A terrible situation of Chechen refugees in Ingushetia who are forcedly deported to Chechnya — causes concern of Europe and UN. Reports of international human rights organizations unambiguously say that in Russia Chechens are also subjected to discrimination and persecution.

But it has become more difficult for Chechen refugees to receive a refugee status in Europe. There are cases of deportation back to Russia. In some cases the deported simply disappeared. Is there a possibility to protect them here, without sending back to Ingushetia where they will be cleaned up?

Answer: I think — it is important to make clear that Chechens also have problems in the legal space of Russia, beyond Chechnya. The official doctrine is that Chechens may have problems in Chechnya, or in the region, but not for example, in Moscow. And this is a reason why our ministers say — why shouldn’t Chechen, who is a Russian citizen for them, shouldn’t live in Moscow. Because there is no war. And they do not speak about problems, which Chechens also face in other parts of Russia, not only in the Caucasian region. And this is the problem, I think so. It has a lot to do with the opinion here about the whole situation. You know, in Germany, for example, the decision is made by reports of our Foreign Ministry, and by decisions of the courts, and courts always use the reports of Foreign Ministry. So, we had the same with Kosovo Albanians before the real war started in Kosovo. We had the same problem: we had Kosovo Albanians in Germany, and the court said: we can send them to Belgrade, because in Belgrade they have no problems. That was also because they analyzed reports from Foreign Ministry, which were not so good, from my point of view. And I think — it is very important to make it clear for our Foreign Ministry clear and in the other European states, what the reality in Russia is. This is the main problem, I think. But we have also to press the Russian authorities, to make it clear — because we can not solve all the problems here in our politics. And they have to respect human rights of Chechens living in Russia because Russia is a member of the Council of Europe. They have signed the humans right Convention. And so they have to respect the human right Convention. I was against the membership of Russia in the Council of Europe, but now it is a member, and I think, we should make it very clear that they have not respected the rules, and if they want to keep their membership they have to respect the rules, including the human right Convention. Russia must be made to respect human rights. If Russia respects the human right Convention, there will be no problems for Chechens living in Russia.

Question: February 23 is the 60th anniversary of the deportation of Chechens. This is a black date in the history of the Chechen people. During the first months of the deportation almost one third of Chechens died. Those who were not deported (mostly mountaineers) — were exterminated by the Red Army on the spot. People were burnt alive in sheds, executed, buried alive, drowned in mountainous lakes. All these crimes are documented. Also February 23 is a state holiday — Russia’s Army Day. On that day numerous demonstrations and meetings in memory of victims of the 1944 genocide and the on-going genocide will take place in Europe. What would you like to tell people (Chechens and Europeans) who are going to take part in these actions?

Answer: I think, we all should use this day to show to our public opinion, also here, that there is an old culturally rich people with a strong aspiration for freedom, which has survived two or three trials of genocide. And I think, that we have to help Chechen people survive the fourth, or the fifth one, whatever you count, trial of genocide and we have a strong responsibility to help the people which was oppressed by the colonial power, first of all, in the 19th century, by the brutal totalitarian system, and now by the authoritarian state which started a masquerade of democracy — it is not a democracy as long as it applies such methods against the people which has human rights and the right to self-determination like all others people in the world.

The Chechen Times

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